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The Luck of Bruce Weber The Hot Streak Continues

#21 User is online   CUtoCU 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postgo_illini13, on 18 March 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You must not have a lot of ACC backers at your work. I have to defend the B10 conference year round.


Live in Pac 12 country now, so not many hoops fans out here. But I was baptized in the heated rivalry waters of downtown Chicago's business world. So I hate most other Big Ten schools, since I know lots of their douchy alums.
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#22 User is online   CUtoCU 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

View Postgo_illini13, on 18 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I'm frankly confused by pulling for any team other than a B10 team. Sure, during the conference season, there are players and coaches that annoy the he11 out of us, but once its tourney time, I've got 7 favorite teams to pull for. United as one. (yes, even the Hoosiers).


Following on this theme, I used to brag that Illinois was the 3rd most historically relevant B1G program behind IU and MSU. Well, since Weber and Matta came to the league, OSU has passed us on the list. And Michigan is also closing fast. Doesn't that piss you guys off? So why would you root for them to improve on their historical resumes, when it directly affronts ours by comparison?
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#23 User is offline   Benchwarmer 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:46 PM

View Postorangekrush117, on 18 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I think this whole Bruce is lucky kick is really cute, especially given how many posters deny there's such a thing as bad luck. The way you hear some posters talk, I think they actually believe Weber sits on his couch and good things happen to him.



He is lucky when he inherits a team. Can I now with the slightest slip of my tongue admit that maybe he can coach or squeeze a few extra wins out of good teams he inherits? Yes,because K-State had never won that many Conference games till this year so maybe 2005 was a little of the same,but both versions were going to the NCAA Tournament back in 2005 and this year for K-State whether Bruce Weber was the coach or not.

Come back to me when Bruce Weber recruits a complete/stacked team other than at Southern Illinois and does well. Until then Krush you're just blowing smoke as usual. Par for the course for a "Strawman" like yourself.

:D
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#24 User is offline   go_illini13 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostCUtoCU, on 18 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Following on this theme, I used to brag that Illinois was the 3rd most historically relevant B1G program behind IU and MSU. Well, since Weber and Matta came to the league, OSU has passed us on the list. And Michigan is also closing fast. Doesn't that piss you guys off? So why would you root for them to improve on their historical resumes, when it directly affronts ours by comparison?


Well, your only comparing within the conference itself. If you go outside the conference and talk about how Illinois ranks up with the rest of the D1 teams out there, it doesnt matter as much. Not to mention, why pull for any ACC, Big East, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC school over a B10 team? I can see pulling for mid-majors, but I think thats why my B10 loves comes into play. Id much rather have Indiana win over teams like Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, etc....
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#25 User is offline   JayVanHouten 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostILLove1997, on 18 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Wisconsin will pwn Bruce again, that is if he even gets past the mighty Boise state Broncos or LaSalle whatevers


Boise State:
Lost @ #3 Seed Michigan State by 4.
Won @ #7 Seed Creighton by 13.
Won vs. #5 Seed UNLV by 5.
Won vs. #8 Seed Colorado State by 13.
Won vs. #7 Seed San Diego St. by 4.

LaSalle:
Won vs. #9 Seed Villanova by 3 in OT.
Won vs. #6 Seed Butler by 1.
Won vs. #5 Seed VCU by 8.

Bruce's 1st round game could be a challenge.
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#26 User is offline   orangekrush117 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postfeartheillini, on 18 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I was wondering when someone would chime in with something incredibly stupid. Didn't have to wait long.


It's like you don't even read the post, and just respond to the poster. There's nothing even remotely dumb about my post. Don't worry though, I'm sure you'll find a way to prove that everything good to happen to Weber is luck, while anything bad is a product of his own worthlessness. But you've got no biases whatsoever, and you just call it like you see it. Conversely, someone like me can understand there's luck involved, but a good ammount of hard work that allowed Weber to be where he is. My world isn't so black and white, or more appropriately to your field, black and red.
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#27 User is offline   Tempo34 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:12 PM

I have no doubt that Weber has "worked hard" to get where he is. I still have major doubts as to whether or not he can run a top 15 BCS program for a sustained amount of time. I don't think he can.


Or probably even top 25 for that matter, seeing as how we didn't finish the season (post-tourney) in the top 25 for his last 6 years.
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#28 User is offline   orangekrush117 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostTempo34, on 18 March 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I have no doubt that Weber has "worked hard" to get where he is. I still have major doubts as to whether or not he can run a top 15 BCS program for a sustained amount of time. I don't think he can.


That's a fair assessment, but it doesn't have much to do with Weber's luck, which is no different from many other coaches... :lol:
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#29 User is offline   Tempo34 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

View Postorangekrush117, on 18 March 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

That's a fair assessment, but it doesn't have much to do with Weber's luck, which is no different from many other coaches... :lol:/>/>


Then can we stop talking about the "bad luck" that adversely affected him at Illinois? And I'd say he's been reasonably lucky to take over two talented/reasonably experienced BCS programs. His three best teams haven't featured a single player that he recruited (that actually contributed).
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#30 User is offline   IlliniVette 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostTempo34, on 18 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Then can we stop talking about the "bad luck" that adversely affected him at Illinois? And I'd say he's been reasonably lucky to take over two talented/reasonably experienced BCS programs. His three best teams haven't featured a single player that he recruited (that actually contributed).

It's not bad luck, it's SNAKEBIIIIIIIIITES!
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#31 User is offline   NewOandB 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:29 PM

If falling into two top-10 teams you've inherited (one after you left your previous school a steaming mess and badmouthed everyone but the Assembly Hall ushers on your way out) with a bunch of "fans" who would root for your new team over Illinois if they ever played isn't good luck, I don't know what is.
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#32 User is offline   feartheillini 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postorangekrush117, on 18 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

It's like you don't even read the post, and just respond to the poster. There's nothing even remotely dumb about my post. Don't worry though, I'm sure you'll find a way to prove that everything good to happen to Weber is luck, while anything bad is a product of his own worthlessness. But you've got no biases whatsoever, and you just call it like you see it. Conversely, someone like me can understand there's luck involved, but a good ammount of hard work that allowed Weber to be where he is. My world isn't so black and white, or more appropriately to your field, black and red.


I did read your post, and stand by my assessment. There are two (or three) regimes of luck under discussion. The "luck" that is implied in the title, and specified in the post are apart and singular from the "luck" that is discussed with regard to weber's tenure here. You're not making the distinction, and therefore you canted in with a dumb post.

edit: let me dumb it down for you. When people refer to weber being the luckiest coach ever--and I said back in 2004 or 2005 that he was born with a horseshoe up his butt (deserving a temporary ban) because he clearly didn't have the managerial skills to run a major program--the reference is in regard to inheriting very good talent. Would you agree that usually when a mid-major coach gets a job at the high-major level it is because the program he is inheriting has fallen on hard times? It is rare, though not unheard of, to assume control of a major program when it is near or at its apex.

Would you further agree that it is rare to get fired for performance at a high major program and then to get immediately hired at another high major program that is at 30 year highs in terms of performance?

Both these relatively rare, but fortuitous circumstances happened for weber. That is luck of the highest order because it's like starting a race with a lap head start relative to coaches who take over programs with less sanguine prospects from the start.

That luck is extraneous to anything weber did.

Now under his management, he had his ups and downs here and some was bad luck which was magnified because he was an incompetent manager of a program. So was it bad luck? Yeah, but a good coach could have easily survived and flourished despite the runs of bad luck.
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#33 User is offline   spark mandrill 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostNewOandB, on 18 March 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

If falling into two top-10 teams you've inherited (one after you left your previous school a steaming mess and badmouthed everyone but the Assembly Hall ushers on your way out) with a bunch of "fans" who would root for your new team over Illinois if they ever played isn't good luck, I don't know what is.


It's a stretch to say that he "inherited" a top-10 team this year.. they're in the top-10 now (or were for a while at least), but started the season unranked.

It's like the people (maybe you're one of them, I don't know) who say he inherited 5 NBA players when he came here. It's putting the cart before the horse.
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#34 User is offline   Ormazd 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostCUtoCU, on 18 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't get this conference pride shtick. It only hurts us in the recruiting department if all of our rivals are basking in March glow. Are you not sick of OSU taking in-state recruits from us? Well, that only started once Matta began making deep Dance runs.

If we make a run, and the rest of the B1G flops, we stand out as victors.


I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I don't want any other B1G team to win the NC, and especially not Indiana.
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#35 User is offline   Tempo34 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

If we're taking care of our business, it doesn't really matter what other B1G teams do. The pie is big enough for everyone to get a slice or two. A higher profile for the conference will typically be of benefit to Illinois.
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#36 User is offline   illinicalvin 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostOrmazd, on 18 March 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I don't want any other B1G team to win the NC, and especially not Indiana.

A strong Big Ten helps Illinois' recruiting. Yes, we are in competition with MSU, Mich., Indiana, Purdue, etc. for recruits. But we also have to sell the Big Ten as a bona fide basketball league and having the respect of national media and a proven track record does that. Illinois benefits far more when Indiana and MSU are good than when Memphis, Kansas, Kentucky, Missouri, etc. are good. Guys should want to play in the B1G and not the ACC or Big East.
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#37 User is offline   Tempo34 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:12 PM

The "I don't want other B1G teams to do well" mentality isn't much different from Weber's "expanding the tournament would save a lot of coaches their jobs" mentality IMO. Don't fear your rivals doing well. Outperform them.
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#38 User is offline   orangekrush117 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

View Postfeartheillini, on 18 March 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

I did read your post, and stand by my assessment. There are two (or three) regimes of luck under discussion. The "luck" that is implied in the title, and specified in the post are apart and singular from the "luck" that is discussed with regard to weber's tenure here. You're not making the distinction, and therefore you canted in with a dumb post.

edit: let me dumb it down for you. When people refer to weber being the luckiest coach ever--and I said back in 2004 or 2005 that he was born with a horseshoe up his butt (deserving a temporary ban) because he clearly didn't have the managerial skills to run a major program--the reference is in regard to inheriting very good talent. Would you agree that usually when a mid-major coach gets a job at the high-major level it is because the program he is inheriting has fallen on hard times? It is rare, though not unheard of, to assume control of a major program when it is near or at its apex.

Would you further agree that it is rare to get fired for performance at a high major program and then to get immediately hired at another high major program that is at 30 year highs in terms of performance?

Both these relatively rare, but fortuitous circumstances happened for weber. That is luck of the highest order because it's like starting a race with a lap head start relative to coaches who take over programs with less sanguine prospects from the start.

That luck is extraneous to anything weber did.

Now under his management, he had his ups and downs here and some was bad luck which was magnified because he was an incompetent manager of a program. So was it bad luck? Yeah, but a good coach could have easily survived and flourished despite the runs of bad luck.


This is a good, well thought out post, if I ignore your weak attempts to insult my intelligence.

I, for one, don't dispute that Weber was fortunate to have been offered two jobs at that level. But how exactly is landing the Illinois job lucky? The guy busted his ass as an assistant for 17 freaking years in the B10 before finding a job at SIU and doing extremely well there. I don't know if you could find many more guys who put in their due like that. You really going to harp on a guy who waited 20 years to get his chance to coach in the Big 10? And while at Illinois he put a Final Four on his resume. This isn't a token superbowl ring while sitting on the bench. So, when Weber fails, and he's out looking for jobs, along comes the KSU opening. There aren't a ton of final four coaches out there, and they decide to take a chance on a retread coach. Landing at a high major was very fortunate, but it's not horseshoe up your butt lucky. He entered in with a fan base that quasi-rejected him and players he had to convince to stay. He elevated that team to heights it hasn't known in decades.

Are we talking about different kinds of luck? Sure, if you want to view it that way. I, however, find it to be ridiculous that someone can dismiss the affect of any "snakebites", while at the same time lambasting the guy for having a couple things go his way.

If you're looking for another coach who got lucky and made the most of it like Weber never could, look at Bill Self. He landed two jobs at programs that didn't need to be rebuilt and has never looked back. He landed a blue-blood job in great shape without ever making a final four, or ever rebuilding a program. Self is a great coach, and he used it to his advantage to ascend up the ranks like a rocket.
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#39 User is offline   Tempo34 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:18 PM

Once again. The three best teams Weber has ever had weren't influenced by a single recruit of his. That's in a 15 year HC career. Coincidence?
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#40 User is offline   illiniphil85 

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:22 PM

View Postdwc13, on 18 March 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

All the posters on HQ who rail about the boring system Wisconsin runs, go check out some video of 1970s North Carolina coached by Dean Smith -- typically with @8 McD's AAs on the team -- playing four corners (okay, keep away) often with more than 10 minutes remaining in a game once they had the lead in the 2nd half. Thankfully, the adoption of the shot clock put an end to that bullsh*t.
Henson tried this for a short period. Needlessly to say I had plenty of issues with it
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